moggy lover

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Posts by moggy lover

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  6

  New Jeremiah Book Question

  by Ultimate Reality in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  if anyone has this book, could you please quote or scan whatever section covers jeremiah 25 and the 70 years issue in that chapter?.

  some in my family thought that a new jeremiah release would answer my 'questions' about the 70 years interpretation.

  now, i am sure they will be happy to hear about this book, thinking that 'jehovah has provided the food at the proper time.

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  moggy lover

  What new Jeremiah book?
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  12

  Was There REALLY a First Century "Governing Body"??

  by Lady Liberty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  first century governing body?the watchtower claims that a formal governing body was established in the first century, which is used as the basis for how the governing body of the watchtower society operate today.. "while all anointed christians collectively form god's household, there is abundant evidence that christ chose a small number of men out of the slave class to serve as a visible governing body.

  the early history of the congregation shows that the 12 apostles, including matthias, were the foundation of the first-century governing body.

  " - watchtower 1990 mar 15 p.11 the term "governing body" is 'loaded language' as it never appears in the scriptures and so has unique application within the pages of the watchtower.

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  moggy lover

  There is no evidence for such a system of governance in the early Christian community, and certainly not before the emergence of a definitive all encompassing centralized authority that would be invested in the Catholic tradition of the fifth century.

  Indeed, ecclesiology, the subject of Church rulership, is only defined in embryonic terms in the NT. Evangelicals believe that the Holy Spirit permitted various forms of congregational [that is, independently constructed congregations with local elders] authority to evolve within the believing community. As churches became established farther away from the original centre of gravity in Jerusalem, these manifested themselves as independent communities whose local body of elders did not interfere in the affairs of other congregations. If such fissures as threatened the existence of the community occured, then the arrangement of Apostles allowed for the settling of disputes.

  It appears that the Apostles were the only constituted authority who were permitted to enter various congregations and settle disputes between various localized units. Otherwise the various congregations or churches got along amicably with each other. In fact they depended on each other for survival against an increasingly hostile civil administration.

  That these various churches had a measure of autonomy can be seen in the way that Paul and Barnabas were anointed by the local church at Antioch to embark on the First Missionary tour [Acts 13:2] without any pressing need to gain the approval of any so-called GB at Jerusalem. Indeed the repetitive concern shown in this narrative is the leading of the Holy Spirit, whose Presence apparently transcended any human authority.

  Also, Paul had sufficient confidence in Titus to permit him to make appointments of elders in his own church, and those churches which were entrusted to him, without the need to have any interference from a remote GB. [Titus 1:5]

  The existence of a GB suggests a preoccupation with doctrinal probity and the need to establish what was and what wasn't orthodox. Actually, history shows that the common thread that ran through the first century community of believers was a love for Christ and the worshipping of Him, sometimes in a primitive liturgy, sometimes in pious devotion. Orthodoxy, and the need to define it arose only when various disputes, usually Christalogical, arose from among the believers. Such a requirement would be recognized as necessary only in the mid fourth century.

  Whatever the meaning of "Hegemenois" used at Heb 13:17, it is clear that the application is to a localized area and pertains to the immediate geography of the readers. Hence whereas, the writer urges the readers of Hebrews to "be obedient to those who were leaders" among them, he also urged them to convey to those same leaders his best regards. [See verse 24, at the end of the letter] This would be impossible if he had in mind a supra-national body claiming to have exclusive rights to submission on the part of the rank and file.

  Thus, the Watchtower structure as it exists today finds no warrant in the genesis of Christianity, but is a development of a much later, hierarchical protocol that developed in the emergence of the Roman Catholic Church. An organization that the Watchtower presumes to despise.
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  22

  Be very glad you don't live next door to me.

  by Lady Lee in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  in the last 7 years 3 neighbors have died.

  all were not expected.. when i lived in winnipeg our neighbor died.

  he was healthy one day and gone the next.

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  moggy lover

  Tell me when you plan on moving to Western Australia. I would need at least two months notice so as to make arrangements to move. Like To Hell, Norway !!
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  3

  Aramaic vs Hebrew / Greek Scriptures.....

  by EndofMysteries in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  matt 1 just for an easy comparing and arugments sake.

  just asking for little bit of help, do all original scrolls in those languages from which all bibles are made, do they all say the same thing, and are all the names the same?

  trying to compare, and appeared the aramaic (trying to find a aramaic bible version), but the names appeared diff in it's language and scriptures a lil out of order.

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  moggy lover

  The subject you are inquiring after is called "Textual Criticism" and involves the detailed analysis of some 30,000 handwritten manuscripts going back to the 2nd Century AD in the case of the NT and to about 1 BC in the case of the OT.

  As far as the OT is concerned manuscripts are available in Hebrew and a Greek translation called the Septuagint, which may in many places differ from the original Hebrew. The reasons behind this variation are complex and too detailed to go into here. As far as the Aramaic is concerned, there are no Aramaic manuscripts of the OT as such, apart from copies of what is called the Samaritan Pentateuch, but ancient commentaries of sections of OT are available but here too, there are slight variations with the Hebrew.

  It appears that the OT canon remained in a state of flux for several centuries as different traditions of manuscript transmission were being effected. This state of OT variables is referred to as "precanonical fluidity" by several scholars. This fluidity is not just a matter of different text forms but aslo of a plurality of what are called "redactional traditions" which caused various textual types to be heavily edited as well as transmitted. This may account for differences not only between the Hebrew and the Greek, but between the various Hebrew manuscripts as well.

  The Hebrew text that we now have and which is called the Standardized Masoretic Text is a development of the Aleppo Codex which first appeared in completed form in 896 AD and was edited by one Moshe ben Asher. The printed edition of this text is called the Leningrad Codex and forms the basis of all translations that are currently being done on the basis of the Hebrew OT, and is now the standardized text from which comparisons are made with the Greek text. Despite the variables, there is a remarkable symmetry in the flow of the text and we are assured that no doctrinal intrusion was undertaken to blunt the integrity of the original writings.

  As far as the NT is concerned, it was obvious right from the start that the early church took its evangelizing responsibilites seriously and almost from the start undertook to transmit the message of the NT into various languages. Probaly the first language that the NT was translated into from the original Greek, was Latin which was first begun in the 2nd Century AD. There are, again several editions of these Latin versions which are collectively called the Old Latin to contrast them with the lated single edition which attempted to harmonize the variants in the Latin. This edition of the Old Latin texts was called the Latin Vulgate, and was the first textual example of harmonizing a text in any language. This was first published in 386 AD and with the course of time itself became divergent since we have at present some 8,000 Latin manuscripts of the Vulgate all with their variations. Again, attempts were made to standardize the text, and the edition we now have was that made in 1592, and this "Clementine" edition of the Vulgate has been the standard of the RC Church. The name came from Pope Clement the 8th under whose supervision this task was undertaken.

  Other important languages that became represented in translation from the early centuries of the church were Syriac, [or Aramaic] which dates from the 5th century, the Coptic from the same time, and the Gothic also from this period. Later manuscripts would come out in Armenian, Ethiopic, Georgian, and several in the ancient version of Arabic. It must be remembered that no manuscript was ever undertaken in Hebrew. The various Hebrew translations of portions of the NT that the Watchtower uses with such critical acclaim, are in fact printed editions of translations that date back to at least the 15th century when printing was first invented in the West.

  The importance of these ancient translations is rich in tradition but limited in scope. None of the original manuscripts of these versions is extanct, and therefore existing manuscripts must be subjected to textual criticism to detirmine the original text as nearly as possible. In addition, in certain types of variants, some of these versions cannot reflect what the original Greek may have said.

  For instance, Latin does not have the definite article, and the Syriac does not the syntactical ability to distinguish between the aorist and perfect tenses. However, having siad that, it must be admitted that the greatest benefit of versional evidence, that we get from these traditions, is that it can show that a particular reading was known in the place and time of the version's origin.

  To get a better picture of this fascinatingly complex subject I would reccomend reading:

  NT Textual Criticism A Concise Guide by David Alan Black.

  Biblical Criticism: Historical, Literary, and Textual by Harrison, Waltke, Guthrie and Fee in the Contemporary Evangelical Perspective Series.

  Introduction To NT Textual Criticism by J Greenlee

  And related articles found in such Bible reserch volumes such as the Interpreter's Bible Dictionary, The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, The Revised International Standard Encyclopedia. Some of these are available for free on the Net, others should be available in any good public library.
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  11

  Current WT Library CD

  by grewupjw1969 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  im looking for the current cd if anyone has it and is willing to burn me a copy.

  i am willing to pay for it along with shipping.. .

  grewup.

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  moggy lover

  Thanks a million zillion tetraquintillion, Black Sheep. I got it and installed it.

  Works beautifully.
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  34

  Golden Age Quotes--You have to see it to believe it.

  by blondie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  question: will husband and wife live together after the resurrection is completed, if both are in harmony with god?.

  answer: the scriptures do not reveal what the relationship of men and women will be after the resurrection is completed.

  the most that we know is that there will be no children born during the last 100 years of the millennium (isa.

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  moggy lover

  Conversation held during the post millennium "new world":

  He: "Oh Justine, you are still so ravishingly beautiful after all these centuries. Your eyes are still as blue as a mountain lake in Switzerland [use other metaphors for brown, black, grey, amber etc] and your body is just as desirable as when we married more than a millennium ago. I love you so much I can spray your body with chocolate and lick it all off"

  Him: "it's Justin"
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  11

  Current WT Library CD

  by grewupjw1969 in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  im looking for the current cd if anyone has it and is willing to burn me a copy.

  i am willing to pay for it along with shipping.. .

  grewup.

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  moggy lover

  Same goes for me
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  136

  Memorial 2010 Your Experiences

  by scotinsw in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  just got back from memorial.

  only went so that i could say to my parents that i had gone and to remind myself why i left.. oh my word!!!

  it was sooooo painful.. got there a bit late - it was a couple of minutes into the talk.

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  moggy lover

  Memorial vs Tandoorie chicken, jalfrazi and rice pilau?????

  NO Contest!!!!

  Cheers
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  6

  Maher Shalal Hash Baz: do you know this guy?

  by behemot in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  http://newyork.timeout.com/articles/music/83566/maher-shalal-hash-baz-at-the-new-museum-concert-preview.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/maher_shalal_hash_baz.

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  moggy lover

  There was a TV series a few years back called "Threat Matrix". One of my favourites but which did not run for more than one series for some reason. Anyway, there was this guy in it who had the name Mahershallalhashbaz Something or other.

  Great stuff. Anyone heard of the show or the actor?
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  1

  Help in finding a previous topic.

  by moggy lover in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  at least a year or even two years ago, there was a fascinating post which listed the frequency of biblical chapters as used in watchtower literature.

  i recall that matt 24 was given the pride of place with some 10-20 thousand citations, and next in descending order were other chapters.

  some chapters such as john 2 and 3 were hardly referred to at all.. i know that i saved it to my hard drive but, in researching some material about the "generation" of matt 24, can not trace it.

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  moggy lover

  At least a year or even two years ago, there was a fascinating post which listed the frequency of biblical chapters as used in Watchtower literature. I recall that Matt 24 was given the pride of place with some 10-20 thousand citations, and next in descending order were other chapters. Some chapters such as John 2 and 3 were hardly referred to at all.

  I know that I saved it to my hard drive but, in researching some material about the "generation" of Matt 24, can not trace it. [I have to sought my files out, honestly]

  Anyone remember it? He asked, hopefully?